Ian Goldin's Reading List

"Robert is a journalist so this is a very well written book, in journalistic style rather than academic, but very well referenced and sourced. It is the story of immigration into the United Kingdom over the last thousand years. The title reflects what every generation has said for the last thousand years, the constant refrain of how somehow they are the indigenous people and those coming are foreigners. What the story tells is how we imagine our own identities as being the identity of the country, but it’s just supplanted on top of someone else’s. A thousand years ago, people didn’t speak English here, in England. More recently, Queen Victoria’s family were all German. She grew up speaking German, and yet we think of her as quintessentially English — the symbol of England and Englishness. So it’s about how we create these myths. It also shows how important foreigners were in creating all the successes that we associate with England and our heritage: including the Industrial Revolution and everything else. So it’s very good at both showing how we create this idea of who an immigrant is and who is foreign and how vital they are to the society. There are two ways of understanding how we’re all foreigners. One is to do genetic testing—which I’ve done, it’s great to do—to see where you come from. The other is to understand your history. This is the history. Anyone who thinks they’re really English should read this book. There are waves, and waves in which different groups are identified as the foreigners. The book talks about anti-Jewish sentiment at times, anti-Indian subcontinent at times, anti-German sentiment, anti-Polish sentiment etc. At other times, how they’re embraced. And how this changes over time. But yes, foreigners are generally not liked. The book is a very good read, which is why I recommend it."

"Yes, it’s by Robert Guest. He also writes very well. He’s telling a contemporary story. It’s about the current period and he is showing how immigrants are not only creating dynamism within a society, but investment networks and technology transfers. It’s a series of examples from different economies—China, the US, UK and others—in which he highlights how none of these investment flows, trade flows and innovation processes would happen without individual people that have moved and travelled. These immigrants become the catalysts of economic growth and change. It’s the story of the Chinese diaspora around the world and how they were able to bring ideas and investment back into China and how China’s transformation from Communism to an open, very dynamic, economy is dependent on this network, which has become stronger and stronger over time. You now have millions of Chinese around the world who are learning and sharing ideas and that has become a source of dynamism for the society. Absolutely, they are the catalyst. They become the source of identifying the need in one society — what Chinese goods would be great in the US, or what they could take back from the US that would work in their society at home. They have the knowledge. They have internalized the needs of different societies, and are able to identify market niches, opportunities, technological transfers, innovations. It’s this diversity—and this is something I also focus on deeply in Exceptional People—that creates the innovation drive. It’s like Gutenberg inventing taking a wine press and a money printing press and creating a printing press. For these people, when it comes to innovation, one and one does not equal two, it equals 10. Yes, that’s what immigrants do. And this is a great book that has examples of this diaspora effect. There are thousands. Look at Silicon Valley, which for us is the iconic symbol of innovation in technology. Try and think of an emblematic Silicon Valley firm that was not started by a foreigner. Google, Yahoo, SpaceX, Tesla these were all started by foreigners. There are some, but I challenge you think of many of them that were started by people that weren’t foreigners. Steve Jobs… Yes. And that’s partly because these people come in and are able to combine ideas, but also because they—and their parents—are more dynamic. They have chosen to take a risk by migrating. If you look at things like patent filings in the US, immigrants are completely disproportionately represented. Try to think of an Academy Award winner or Nobel Prize winner who isn’t an immigrant. There are very few. Immigrants bring this creative juice, and this book gives you a sense of that. He focuses on skilled immigrants, which is one dimension. No, but in Exceptional People I deal with all different categories. Obviously refugees are a whole category apart. I agree with him. I don’t agree with him about number one—because China is going to become number one— but I agree that immigration is the reason why the US will remain much more dynamic than Europe… Yes, although that’s being tested at the moment. You wouldn’t believe it, listening to the Republican presidential candidates…."

"This is the classic textbook. Stephen Castles has been going since the 1970s or early 1980s. When I was a student I read his books and that was a long time ago. It’s a comprehensive view of how important immigration is, what drives it, push-pull theories and so on. It’s now in its fifth edition. If you want one book to read about the theory of immigration, the background to it, this is the best — apart from my book of course. All my book choices are readable, none of them are only for economists."

"This is a great book. Williamson and Hatton are two great economic historians. What it highlights is just the scale of that immigration. At times a third of Ireland, a third of Sweden, a third of southern Italy, was migrating. It also highlights how many went‑—not only to the United States—but to South America, the mass migration to places like Argentina, which is often forgotten. It also highlights how many came back later, when conditions changed. For some of these destinations, in later years, a third of people returned. And it highlights the role of technology in all of this: it was really the steamship that allowed it to happen. It was the combination of the push— pogroms, famines, political conflicts in Europe—and then the steamship suddenly enabling it to be a much safer, quicker, and cheaper passage. If you think we’ve got mass migration now, you have to read this book. It’s nothing compared to that period. I find it fascinating. The book also highlights how there were no passports in that period. Yes. And of course, in Europe, there were far fewer countries. Immigration is, by definition, the crossing of a border and it’s become tighter and tighter. Don’t worry about the equations! This is not a book for specialists. Anyone can read this book. Yes. You’ve got to think who you’re talking about here. A lot of these people would have died. A lot of us wouldn’t be here without this age of mass migration in the 19th century. People would have died in the pogroms, they would have died of famine in Ireland. There are different reasons people emigrate, but generally it’s to survive and to improve their own lives and those of their families. Support Five Books Five Books interviews are expensive to produce. If you're enjoying this interview, please support us by donating a small amount . That’s true, in great part, for refugees, who are a very specific legal category of immigrants. For them, the other option is death or persecution. You just have to look at the pictures of Aleppo to get a sense of what they’re leaving behind. So it’s certainly good for them. 95% of them are going to neigbouring countries — to Turkey, to Lebanon, to Jordan. We’re getting a tiny, tiny fraction in the UK. Germany is accepting a million refugees this year, which is quite extraordinary. In the UK, we’re accepting less in two years than they’re accepting in two days. You should look at the GDP numbers for Germany. Germany is predicting higher GDP growth this year — because of the refugees. But, by the way, I’m not so naive as to recommend a world without borders. There are two opposite corners to this. There’s total control: think North Korea, for what you’ll end up like. Total openness is, I think, a bit utopian. Europe—and the Schengen zone, which I strongly believe in—is the first experiment we’ve seen, in the 20th century, of removing borders. And it worked fantastically. It’s not leading to mass migration — even though unemployment levels are 60% for youth in Greece or the south of Spain. As far as I know, there are very few unemployed Greek or Spanish kids on the streets of London or anywhere else. That’s because, basically, people stay at home. So yes, but it’s idealistic. Like free trade, it’s an endpoint — rather than a place we can get to in the near term. Nobody would dispute that. Lots of studies have shown that."

"This is a tough read. It’s the story of a kid, a Somali refugee. It’s about how he became a refugee, about his family being killed. And how he bumped around in different African countries, eventually making his way to South Africa. A remarkably brave, a remarkably hopeful kid who is just constantly in the most terrible situations. Then he experiences the xenophobia against Somalis in South Africa. These other books I’ve talked about are journalists or academics talking about migration, this is a protagonist. It’s based on numerous interviews Jonny did with this boy and it portrays his story. There are many books that are important immigrant stories. This one is very poignant and well written. I can’t tell you."