Why Plato Wrote

"Some of these ideas I’ve just been talking about are advanced in another of the books that I’ve chosen, which is called Why Plato Wrote by Danielle Allen. Her argument is that Plato wrote, as she puts it, to change “the symbol garden of Athenian culture.” Now we should say he wasn’t only writing for Athens. He had students in his academy from all over the Greek world . Many of his students, and their students, would go on and take his ideas beyond its walls to other societies. So I think it’s too narrow to say only Athens. Maybe both Ober and Allen direct us mainly to his impact on Athens and we should also look beyond. But I think what they say about Athens is very illuminating. That’s an interesting question. George Grote, in 19th century England, was one of the first people to really try to appreciate Plato in his historical context. Before that, people had tended to sever him from Athens, and say “Look, Athens just got him completely wrong, he just despised it, there’s no real connection between them.” There was a sort of dichotomy — either you could admire Athens, or you could admire Plato, but you couldn’t understand them both in any kind of productive relation. Of course Plato is someone about whom, almost from the beginning, there’s been dissent about how to read him. There were people who read him as a full-blown idealist. Then there were people who read him as a sceptic, because some of the dialogues end in aporia, in unresolved puzzles. The sceptical Plato and the political Plato also have roots in Nietzsche . This idea that Plato was writing to have an impact in politics through his writing is something that Nietzsche was very interested in. I’m slightly randomly picking forbears, but I don’t think it’s only the 21st century. It’s true that you need a historical approach. Before the 19th century, approaches were more straightforwardly philosophical, so they didn’t have this historical dimension. Support Five Books Five Books interviews are expensive to produce. If you're enjoying this interview, please support us by donating a small amount . Yes, that’s important. Within the Republic itself there are different frames that are very interesting. Most of the Republic is a dialogue between Socrates and two of Plato’s brothers. The three of them constitute themselves as legislators for a city in speech. The ideal constitution is what they’re legislating, but they know that it’s only a city in speech. Then the question is, “What are we, as readers, reading about legislation for a city in speech, knowing that that’s not the same thing as a city in deeds and actuality?” There’s a great standard contrast between words and deeds that really opens up the question of we as readers. We have to have some relationship to it and to take a role in relation to it. Not just the mind, but the soul. This is a big debate. In Book I of Plato’s Republic , one of the initial questions is, “Can there ever be a just city or are all cities inherently ones in which justice is only serving the interests of their rulers? It’s a facade if people think that it benefits them, it only really benefits the elite.” This raises the question, “Is it always in an individual’s interest to obey justice?” It sounds like it isn’t. Then that becomes the key question. How can we show whether the happiest life is going to be the just life or the unjust life? If we’re going to try to answer that about the individual mind or soul, let’s look at the city in big letters, like a model for the soul. The arc of the dialogue then is, what does thinking about these cities tell us about the soul? But we’ve already had the political question on the table. We don’t have to say it’s not telling us something important about politics just because we acknowledge that the ultimate goal is whether it is in the individual’s interest to be just, or not."