Dissonant Lives: Generations and Violence Through the German Dictatorships

"Mary Fulbrook is one of the most eminent scholars of German history. She’s a bit of a heroine of mine. This book is a more general sweep of 20th century Germany. It gives you a sense of what it would have been like to have lived through fascism and then communism—and then the end of communism. Both regimes required conformity to their system. They had very different values and huge penalties for stepping out of line. East Germans of a certain age had to navigate and tell stories about themselves and their actions, in the different systems, that presented them in the best light—wherever they happened to be. “Men and women make history but not in circumstances of their own choosing” Men and women make history but not in circumstances of their own choosing. If you were living under fascism, in the 1000-year Reich that Hitler was planning, you wouldn’t have known, at the time, that it was going to end. So you made your decisions. There were career Nazis—if you’ve got a family and want to put food on the table and provide, then maybe you do join the party. I’m not making excuses, but if that’s the way the wind’s blowing then you might make that decision. Then, twelve to fifteen years later, how do you spin your Nazi career decision? It’s amazing to chart how people commute and tell their slippery tales and present themselves. Germany had this tumultuous 20th century and this is the ultimate challenge. Support Five Books Five Books interviews are expensive to produce. If you're enjoying this interview, please support us by donating a small amount . A postmodernist talks about how individuals are shaped by the society they live in, which is undoubtedly true. At the same time, you see people, who remain individuals, faced with moral choices. And they make decisions. They retain—historians are keen on the word—agency. They are individuals who are responsible for the choices they make. With difficulty. Obviously, they tried to distance themselves from the Nazi regime pretty quickly in Spring 1945. At the end of the war, as the Russians are invading, the Nazi flags are burnt and all Nazi insignia are destroyed. It’s a story of reinvention. But it’s easier for some than for others. Going back to Atina Grossmann’s book, you see, at the end of the war, that whereas before Jews had been persona non grata , suddenly Germans want to know a Jew who can say ‘he was a good German’ and give you the all clear. In the de-Nazification process, knowing a Jew and having a Jew who says that you’re alright is a valuable commodity. “In the de-Nazification process, having a Jew who says that you’re alright is a valuable commodity” Victor Klemperer—who wrote an enormous set of diaries about his persecution under the Nazis—talks about this in his writing about what it was like. He was an academic and was cut out by his colleagues and forced out. But, after the war, suddenly everyone wanted to know him again. I suppose that underlines the point Mary Fulbrook is trying to make. Her book is also really interesting in terms of showing the importance of generation as an analytical tool. You think about gender, race, or class as things that we analyse, but she points out here how important age is in mobilising people—whether people were the right age or stage to receive the Nazi message or the communist message. A lot of people who were very active in the Nazi regime were just too young to fight in World War I. They had this pent up sense of duty that they had not fulfilled—which they channelled into their Nazism."